How does crypto on-board the next set of investors as crypto goes mainstream? Join Jesse Proudman, CEO of robo-crypto advisor Makara Digital, on this episode of the Compass podcast as he discusses the future of investing with Compass CEO Whit Gibbs. Proudman talks about building a startup during the crypto bear market, how to build portfolios for new crypto entrants and Makara Digital’s product offering.
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Gibbs: Hey everyone, welcome to the Compass podcast. Excited today to be joined by Jesse Proudman. Jesse is the founder of Strix Leviathan. And today we're going to be talking about his new startup Makara Digital. So this is going to be a great conversation we're going to talk about the market, we're going to get into some of his thoughts. Last time that Jesse was on a podcast with me we talked about stock-to-flow and how that was all going that was many moons ago and Bitcoin. So we're going to revisit a lot of the things that we discussed and get into his new venture. So hope you guys all enjoy the show. I hope that you enjoyed this episode. If you do, please consider subscribing and leaving a review on your preferred listening platform. It really helps out the show the Compass podcast is presented commercial free by Compass, the number one bitcoin mining marketplace. If you want to get started mining Bitcoin, source hard to find ASICs, or find competitively priced hosting space and check Compass out at compassmining.io. And now on to the show. Hey, Jesse, how are you? Welcome to the show.
Proudman: Oh, well. Thanks for having me.
Gibbs: I know we were gonna get into Makara Digital. I'm excited to hear about that. It's been a while since we talked man. I think last time Bitcoin was at like $8,500.
Proudman: Sounds right. I mean, it was that last week. I mean, it could have been who knows in these markets?
Gibbs: So I mean, for anyone who doesn't know your background, why don't we give a quick overview so you founded Strix Leviathan, and now you're CEO of Makara Digital. Let's talk about Strix first, and then we'll get into Makara.
Proudman: Yeah, absolutely. So I have a cloud computing startup that I ran forever years here in Seattle that was acquired by IBM in June of 2015. I spent two and a half years as a Distinguished Engineer at IBM after the sale and had the fortunate luck of finding a role with IBM ventures in 2017. To become an EIR, entrepreneur and residents focused on blockchain. The my job over 2017 was effectively to research and learn this space with the intent to launch a blockchain focused accelerator for IBM, which I couldn't have picked a cooler job in 2017 to have. IBM came back at the end of 2017. In fact, we said there was no budget to launch the accelerator offered me a role working on Hyperledger with a reload in New Jersey. And as compelling as that sounded, I decided I wanted to get back to my entrepreneurial roots. So founded Strix Leviathan in January of 2018. Thesis was pretty simple, when we started. Sort of a two fold belief, one that the cryptocurrency space was predominantly priced based on behavioral characteristics, fear and greed, and that those characteristics manifest themselves in pricing data. And then we could identify those patterns using algorithms and trade algorithmically. And then to do that we needed to set a software and we looked at the space and recognize that really institutional trading software and crypto was was not existence or really abysmal, piecemeal. And so felt like there was an opportunity to go build that software and didn't know if we would have a mechanism to basically sell that as SaaS to other people, or just use it for ourselves. But we knew that software had to get built up. So that's effectively what we started strictly to do. We launched a hedge fund using that software in April of 2018, and have been hard charging ever since.
Gibbs: That's awesome. And what led from Strix to Makara.
Proudman: Yeah, so start with is a quick overview of what what Makara is. So Strix is a traditional hedge fund, we are a 3C7 Fund, which means we can sell to qualified purchasers, that's people with 5 million in investable assets and up so it's it's a small world of prospective investors. And quite frankly, we've always had this desire to do something that can touch more people to make this space accessible to more like we scraped to support the LPs that we have, and we love the fund that we run. But we've wanted to make crypto accessible. And as we've had all these conversations over the last couple years, we've really come to recognize that for most people, LPs of our fund included, but even prospects, you know, doctors, lawyers, bankers, we think of them as the working professionals who are 50 to 60 hours a week in their job, and then they come home to spend time with their families like they don't have the hours and hours and days and days it takes to research and understand this landscape. But it doesn't mean they're not interested or curious. And so I hedge fund is one way to solve that. But we kept thinking about other ways that we can really create a product where retail investors could gain access. So we came up in the summer of 2020 with this thesis to become cryptos first robo advisor. So using an SEC, registered investment advisor license, we effectively are building wealthfront or betterment for crypto. And the objective here is for new market participants, people who aren't currently deploying in the space who are confused and overwhelmed with what it takes to actually participate here to be the easiest path for those for those new investors to come participate.
Gibbs: That's awesome. And right now especially, it's such a needed thing, right? Because everyone is it's all eyes on crypto at the moment. I mean, whether it's Doge or Bitcoin or Eth, or any of these assets that are now emerging, it seems like everyone is talking about it. So right now with you guys launching, how have you approached this market in the fever pitch that it is?
Proudman: Yeah, I think one of the really fascinating First things for us as we think about this launch, like at the end of the day, why do people invest in this asset class? We think it's for two reasons. One, the returns are phenomenal, right? You're getting returns that otherwise that aren't accessible elsewhere. And to some extent, we think of it as liquid angel investing, right? Investors have had accredited investors have had access to these kinds of returns in private companies. But you've never had really liquidity. So you kind of you make an investment and you sit you wait, and hopefully you've picked investing in Coinbase 10 years ago, and now you're Gary Tan, and you're very happy on Twitter, right? Like, people have had that access. But in this market, it's all liquid, it's tradable in real time. And so you can see the gains and losses as they occur. People want access to that it's compelling. But also, it's fascinating. It's an industry that is very much like the internet circa 97. We've got functional networks, were sort of that the underlying technology is proven. And now we're figuring out what are we going to do with those what's going to ride on top of all that, and I think over the last two years – DeFi is the perfect example of this – We've seen this, this really this surge of new applications sitting on top of these chains, but it's still like it's too confusing. So how does somebody who doesn't? Doesn't participated here before? How do they go figure out what the 6000 different assets all are? How do they figure out what the difference between Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin SV is? How do they go, like, begin to interact with with DeFi and understand that the concept of DeFi? So, knowledge is a big component here, we want people to feel educated about what they're investing in, and to know what they're investing in. So we bridge we bridge access to the space of education with a space, and we think it makes it really compelling one two punch.
Gibbs: Now, where do you find that that education is received the best when it comes to educating these new market participants or new market entrants?
Proudman: Yeah, so we're still pre-launch. So most of the work we've been doing today is, is around building awareness of the product itself. Once we're live that the product itself, really, it's going to be sort of a two part application, right. But we the investing part of the application, and then there'll be this this Makara University section, and the goal there, like there's plenty of resources about Bitcoin or crypto on the internet today. But if you start to go through them, like they're pretty, they're pretty thick, I think it just takes a lot of time to digest and understand, you know. Lopp has that phenomenal Bitcoin resource. It's like 75, links to blog articles about the asset class. And in this world, like that's not necessarily digestible, works great if you have those three months to go dig it. But for people that have the 30 to 90 seconds, it's it's not a good resource. So our objective is how do we distill sort of all of the complexity here into short, either video or text snippets, you know, make it multi-format in a way where you can sort of participate for a short period of time and then have a takeaway, like people want to be able to go to the office or to see their friends or hop on their zoom call and say: Look, I actually understand this DeFi thing or NFT's right, I get what this NFT thing is, let me give you my short explainer. And so the thesis here is that if we can distill all of the complexity of this asset class down into the human digestible language, that will resonate with these new market participants.
Gibbs: Sure, as as we're looking at this industry, where I mean, I think everyone now is reaching out to me about crypto, right? If they know you're involved, you are now the target of everyone's attention,
Proudman: We got laughed at for the last two years, and now they want to chat again.
Gibbs: It's It's so funny, it's so funny seeing people come out of the woodwork that wouldn't have given you the time of day. years ago, I remember. I mean, I guess is probably 10 years ago. Now, the first time that I tried to start a company, it was just it was an abysmal failure. And I remember a lot of the people that I reached out to at that point in time for advice on starting that company, you know, got laughed out of a lot of rooms, like doors shut in my face. And now it's it's so funny to see them reaching out like Oh, hey, friend, it's been it's been so long, it's it's nice to reconnect. It's good to be able to help those people too. It's like every everyone that can get involved. It's all a win.
Proudman: I had this CEO dinner in Seattle back in 2018, you know, it's 30 CEOs from the startup scene. Back when you could do these things he get together every couple months and have dinner talking about what's going on in the businesses. This was April or May of 2018. And you know, you walk in, everybody does an talk about what they do. So I end up going last that day and say look, you know Jessie Proudman, but I started Strix Leviathan and it's a crypto hedge fund. And one of the women in the room stands up and goes, that is the Bro-iest thing I have ever heard of in my entire life. Yep, here I am. I got every every group has to have one. So it's it's been funny just to watch. Every I mean, really, it's the last in 2018-2019. Everybody laughed and everybody wants to chat. But that's great, right? Like we now because everybody's like, stuck through it. Because we stuck through it. Like we have this resource of information that we now can share. That's that's valuable. Like we're here to help and educate and it's fun to now laugh with people instead of just be laughed at.
Gibbs: It's true. It's true. So when it comes to the the bro-iest thing in the in the room, right? I think that's something that is it's nice to see that that crypto is kind of moving away from that culture. It's still I mean, heavily dominated by by males at this point, but it's good to see that there's a transition there. When it comes to to the marketing and who you guys are looking to reach out to with when it comes to Makara, what's, what's the strategy there? Like? You mentioned doctors and lawyers and business professionals who just don't have the time to focus on it. Do you think that it's going to be a wider breadth? Or will it be just mostly that $150 to $300k a year professional?
Proudman: Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I think we're, as in any startup, as we're discovering that now, as we go. And certainly a lot of the things that we're learning in the midst of early marketing campaigns are opening our eyes. At the end of the day, I think it's going to be a very wide envelope of people that are interested in this. Cryptos is just too confusing, it's too hard. And all of us that participate on a day-to-day basis, we get it, we spent that energy to figure it out. But we're the early early minority, quite frankly. And for the majority of market, people in the US, like, they look at this, and they say I don't understand even the concept of an exchange, like I gotta go do what I gotta like, what's a market order, right? Like, it doesn't doesn't resonate. And so the thesis here is, how do we just we make this path simple. And once it's simple people that have that desire that that itch they want to scratch in this space, they can participate, because they don't have to feel like they're going to be sort of the the foolish person in the room that makes the mistake. And that's one of the scariest things about this asset class, like, you can go make mistakes anywhere. But the consequences and complete financial loss, you make a mistake here, and you've lost everything. And you see it, you know, we talked to an LP prospect a number of weeks ago, who accidentally sent the wrong version of Ave to Coinbase. And now there's $100,000 of Aave v1 sitting that Coinbase won't recognize and at some point they may recognize it and at some point, he may get his money back. Like, that's horrifying to me, if that's if that's what your first experiences into this asset class, you're never going to be the leader. So we can't make we can't make that the experience. Sure. We can't make we can't make people accidentally getting margin liquidated because they didn't understand what they were doing with 125% leverage, 125x leverage. Those arn't ways to welcome new people here. And in a way that's sustainable, right. It's great, it's great for the exchanges, it's great for fees, it's not great for longevity of the platform. And secondarily, like going back to that bro-ey comment, like at the end of the day, this is a it's an asset class that largely has been founded on this notion of skirting regulation, and that we're going to operate kind of in the shadows and do everything we can to avoid the regulatory over purview. And and I think that that works like it's like Uber, right, they had to go skirt regulation at the beginning to be able to launch the company because they couldn't have their bootstraps. It couldn't have gotten asked permission to do what they need to do. But now but now we're here like this industry is established, it's not going away. And skirting regulation, it's no longer cute and funny. Like it's just, it's unfortunate. And if we want new market participants to come into the space, we need to embrace regulation. So that was a big part of our thesis here using this this sec registration. So we'll be the first or we are the first SEC registered crypto robo advisor and we like we went we went the opposite direction. Like let's do this with the most regulatory overhead that we can so that it makes these these new market participants you know that there's some there's some level of safety and comfort infrastructure that they they know and understand. And so trying to move away from from that kind of bro-ey a crypto Twitter persona into this is a real legitimate investment business.
Gibbs: Well and you know, the the level of comfort that a company can provide in crypto is paramount, I think these days because everyone coming in is assuming that they're walking into the wild west, right. And most people just don't feel equipped. And it's, it's, it's off putting for a lot of them. We I mean, we've noticed that a Compass, everyone thinks you're a scam until they realize you're not you know, and when I interviewed Zach at BlockFi was the same thing. He said, you know, your first customers that come in, they just want to see that you can follow through on what you say, you know, whether it's a loan payment actually hitting their account with us, when people actually see the mined coin, hit their wallet, it all validates the model. And then they become you know, loyal clients for a very long time. Now with you guys, as you're growing it, walk me through it. So let's say I come in, I'm like, Look, I got $1000 bucks, just round number. I want to invest - guide me. What do you guys do?
Proudman: Yeah. So it's it's very much a robo advisory process. So you come down with a mobile app. First, you download the app. And you can either just sort of browse through the content or you can register so it's not a forced registration to get started. And we have created this notion of investable baskets. So given there are 1000s of individual coins, and they all have different characteristics and names and their categories, we wanted to kind of eliminate that confusion. And we look to the stock market historically, like how is this done in equities. And this notion of thematic ETFs really called us so you know, I can go buy the Ark FinTech ETF or I can buy the Ark Innovation ETF and I generally get a sense of what the strategy is what they're trying to do. You know they've done the selection work for me. I know what I'm buying. And so as I think about the areas that I'm interested in, I can go pick the ETF that is appropriate. So we've kind of created that similar model. These arn't ETFs. But they're investable baskets that we have sort of affiliated strategies and markets with. So you come on you register, you complete sort of your survey, why are you here? And you know, I think in traditional Robo advisory, you're trying to establish what your risk tolerance is. And that's not a great strategy here, since you've got risky, riskier and riskier, like everything is effectively the same profile, right? And so instead, I think we're looking at like, what's interesting to this in this asset class to you? Is it you're simply concerned about inflation? Is it? You know, Bitcoin seems like sort of the most established player and that's all you're really interested in starting with, is it you just like having your toe in the water? And so you want access to everything? And is it DeFi, you know, decentralized applications or finance pieces, so I tried to sort of parse out while you're participating here, and then presenting a set of these baskets to you that sort of meet that characteristic. And then once you've done that, you're able to pick one or multiple. So you can say, look, I want half my portfolio just in Bitcoin, because I think that's interesting. But I want the other half in in everything else, that we call that the gumbo basket, it's literally it's a risk weighted instead of market cap weighted or equal weighted basket, but it's every token that we have available on platform. And so you can kind of get access to both sides of the coin, just the oldest, most established asset and then everything and and then the system just runs your investments for you on sort of the on a quarterly basis. You'll get rebalanced. You can set up recurring deposits, if you want to dollar cost averaging and the and the capital will just flow into the investments you've already selected. And so it's really it's as simple as that, like, there is no deciding what's the right coin, there is no deciding when do I enter? Or how do I dissipate? It just it does it all for you?
Gibbs: Is it time bound? Or is it based on price of a token? So I mean, let's say everything goes up and down very quickly. So let's say you know what I what I enter into today, pumps 60-70%? Are you liquidating a percentage of the holdings and rebalancing right away? Or what does that look like?
Proudman: Yeah, so we have different strategies based on different baskets. When we launched, we'll start predominantly with passive baskets, you can think of these as traditional index funds, those will rebalance on a quarterly basis. So it's not kind of a daily or weekly endeavor. We found historically, if you rebalance that, frequently, you end up both from a transaction fee perspective and just kind of a chop perspective, ending up having a less than ideal portfolio. And in addition to the passive baskets, we'll have one active basket when we launch and then we think over time, this will be the biggest area of differentiation for us. This active basket when we launch will be effectively a Bitcoin-Ethereum relative value basket. So it will reweighed your portfolio, heavier Bitcoin or Ethereum, based on this algorithm that we've developed inside of Strix based on the forward looking return expectation of either asset, so you're still long 100% in either asset, it's not their day trading for you. But the objective there is, is to sort of rewieght or shift focus when we think one or when the algorithm and I should say things one market will do better than than the other. So it's an example of what capability wise we have in store. And we think over time will add significantly more capability on those active baskets. And that's the neat thing, because these are these aren't ETFs. These are implementations in our software platform. So we can experiment, we can launch new baskets, we'll be able to have the future user defined baskets, we have so much flexibility because this is all defined in software versus defined instead of as a regulatory envelope in a formal exchange traded product. It's really it's it's a neat way to bring it to market.
Gibbs: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, timing is great. Obviously, the market is, is doing its thing right now. Where do you see where do you see this going over the next 6 to 12 months? I mean, that Wall Street cheat sheet that we all look at, where are we right now? Click near the top?
Proudman: Anybody's guess, right? I mean, that's the craziest thing about these markets. I've just found now that we've been in these for four years, the price predictions to me are joke. Nobody knows. Nobody knows where we're going, why would people like to talk about it because it gets views nice. But at the end of the day, I mean, we price will go up if there continue to be more buyers and sellers and price will go down if that that inverts. And, you know, I think anecdotally I look at where we are from a market structure perspective. And I look at who's participating and I do see a market shift from from what happened in 2017. Like 2017 was almost exclusively a retail led phenomenon. He did not have institutional traders. He did not have hedge funds in the same way that we use today participating and the tolerance to from an investment perspective of a retail investors is very different than that of a more sophisticated institutional investor. And so as I think about percentage of dollars, floating around in the space and where they're coming from, it certainly feels like something is different here. I mean, I think if you look at these retracements, we've had over the last week, or, you know, we've had a couple of the beginning of this year, have they anecdotally feel like they're being snapped up faster than they were in 2017? We haven't done the actual analysis. But, but anecdotally, it certainly feels that way. And I think it makes sense. Like if there is now this institutional belief that this asset class or Bitcoin in particular can can be a meaningful replacement to gold from a store value perspective, then there's opportunity does dips are viewed as investment opportunities, not as moments of panic. And there's definitely if we just look at the amount of dry powder sitting on the sidelines, in terms of actual cash, like, there is so much cash floating around, and it has to go somewhere. You know, so that's one way we look at it. The second component is we think about this. It's a speculative risk on asset class by far and large. You know, I think we've certainly seen the stock market act in peculiar ways over the last year with all that money that is floating around and sort of given the United States is now on the verge of sort of moving to the call the next phase of the COVID era, I think this summer is going to be out of control with people sort of feeling like they've they've beaten COVID, like even though we're so far away from that, in reality, like the feeling is there, people are getting vaccinated, you see it all over Twitter, and there's this level of excitement, people are going to go out and they're going to spend, and they're going to spend in ways that I think nobody's really prepared for right now. And so how that sort of ripples its way into speculative assets or into the market. You know, I think from a macro perspective, we're pretty excited for the next six, seven months looks for globally and then just how that trickles down into risk on speculative assets, I think can benefit this industry tremendously.
Gibbs: I mean, so a couple of things you said there when it comes to the the market participants now we definitely have the strongest hands and the deepest pockets involved. And I echo your sentiment 100% It seems like all of these dips, even this one over the past, you know, 48-72 hours, maybe I'm just you know, have a different mind, but there was no concern that it was going to go much lower, right? Before it would be Oh, no, if we don't reclaim this level on Bitcoin, we're going down. But then you think, Okay, well, you know, if I'm Michael Saylor, I'm one of these guys who's been deploying hundreds of millions and billions of dollars when Bitcoin was above 55k, how much am I going to buy when we're down at 48,47,46? Right. I, it's my my question with regards to this, though, is, I mean, could this could this be the last cycle? Could we could we be nearing the like a multi year supercycle that could then just level out and we see less of these price fluctuations in Bitcoin, like we've been used to over the past, you know, decade?
Proudman: I don't I don't necessarily believe that. Like, I think, again, this it's it's a speculative asset class. speculative asset classes have boom, bust cycles that repeat time and time again. You know, the difference to me in this one is that we've now reached this this point of market acceptance, that it doesn't, it doesn't feel so much as an experiment to me anymore, it's that that there is agreement that this industry is here to stay. And but in the construct of that there's still 6000 assets, there's new assets being created every day. And that, by no means do I think we will see an end to volatility in those we may see Bitcoin stabilized to some extent, or Ethereum stabilized, or some of these other large caps that are more familiar from an institutional perspective. But as we work our way down the list of coins and marketcap, like the volatility is not going away. So it's hard to say. The other really interesting thing to me that didn't exist in 2017 is is the institutional infrastructure, right? The fact that now as a Fortune 500 traded company, or as a public company, that there are avenues for you to go store these assets. From a custodial perspective, there are auditors that are willing to, you know, audit balance sheets that hold these assets, like so much has changed, that opens the door to those players that you know, is always 2017 that was the drumbeat like the institutions are coming in the institutions are coming in, that was 2018, it's gonna say home price is going to rebound, because institutions are coming. Yeah, well, it took till like the middle of 2020, for that actually, to become true. And I think a lot of that was because of this institutional infrastructure like it was just missing. And we finally hit this this threshold where it's now available, but it's it's almost all exclusively focused on Bitcoin. And we're starting to see Ethereum supported a little bit more broadly in some of these tools. And but there's a lot of there's a lot of continued development work to do before sort of the, the support that Bitcoin has has seen is felt across the entire industry.
Gibbs: Sure, with the even you mentioned the 6000 additional assets, right? There are tons being created every day. It seems like there's a new token launch. I think, actually, there's three or four new launches every day. What does it take to become legitimate enough in your eyes to then be included in one of the Makara baskets?
Proudman: Yeah, so step back and kind of just talk about structurally how the actual product works. So as an IRA with the SEC, our job is effectively to provide investment advice, which means that we don't really hold customer capital. So what happens when you come in you sign up with us is on the back end, you're getting an account created at Gemini in your name, where your capital is deposited, and then we have effectively rights to go trade that account on behalf of you. So in the same way that you may have sort of interactive brokers account and you may have had a wealth manager kind of managing your portfolio, there are five account that somebody is managing, it works similarly on this site. So from a customer's perspective, they get the benefit of not having to worry about us as a startup needing to think through all the security ramifications of custody of assets. And we get all the benefits of Gemini's insurance policies and all of their regulatory work that they've done to establish themselves. And we get all the benefits of Gemini's broader product set, that also means that that we're limited to the assets that the Gemini supports. So that that's one constraining factor for us. One of the things that we're really excited about, though, is looking at Gemini over the last 12-18 months, they've really made this aggressive push in the assets that they support. So if you go back 18 to 24 months, you know, it was like five or six markets. And now I think it's 33,34. They're adding new markets on a pretty regular basis. So and and our desires, we'll partner closely with them as we see new new things emerging. And really in our eyes, it's new, like how can we support getting investment access to new categories in this broader asset class in the same way that we'd want kind of in a thematic ETF app? So NFT's obviously are hot right now, how can we gain access to not necessarily the individual tokens, but maybe some of the the underlying blockchains that are powering this broader sort of category? And do it in a way that is there safe and regulatory compliant with the client?
Gibbs: So Jesse, when do you guys plan to launch Makara?
Proudman: Yeah, so the two big roadblocks for us one was getting the SEC license. And so that actually happened ahead of schedule for us, we're really excited to that. And we anticipated getting that here, mid April, that was received March 30. So that's done, check the box. And then the second is just finishing app development, we have built a whole prototype in q4 and q1 that we are going to go to market with it was ready to go. And it was a web first implementation, we decided that given sort of the target customer that we needed to be mobile first. And so we went back to the drawing board and started working on on that implementation. We're targeting, we've had a waitlist open now for the last two months or so we're targeting our initial beta towards the end of May. And then we'll begin pulling users off that waitlist have set on a first come first serve basis shortly thereafter. So I'm sort of like Robin Hood, launched with their gated access, we'll do the same thing. We want to make sure the app scales we want to avoid a lot of the customer service issues you've seen in other exchanges, as they've on boarded massive numbers of users. So that the focus here is on quality of experience and quality of of product versus quantity of user on platform. But we are we're targeting sort of end of May to begin bringing users on on we're really excited that for that to begin.
Gibbs: That's fantastic. I'm excited to see it come to life for anyone who's listening, and we'll include relevant links, but let everyone know where they can find you Jesse how they can follow Makara's progress and how they can register for the waitlist.
Proudman: Yeah, absolutely. So the website is makaradigital.com. You can sign up for the waitlist there, you can move up the waitlist by sharing your referral link with your friends. So each week we have a $500 pre-funded accounts award to the highest referrer of the week, and then the top 100 accounts at launch will receive $50 pre-funded in their account. So it's a nice way to sort of reward folks who have been with us from the beginning and are excited about the product. You can find more information on me on Twitter, so I'm just @jesseproudman and @markaradigital onTwitter as well.
Gibbs: Awesome. Jesse, thank you for coming on the show. This is a great conversation.
Proudman: I really appreciate you having us and look forward to coming and visiting Miami at some points in here.
Gibbs: Yeah, whenever you're ready, man drinks on me. Come on down. That's a wrap for us at the Compass podcast. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please subscribe and consider leaving us a five star review on your preferred listening platform. Thanks again everyone. The thoughts and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests on the compass podcast are their own and do not represent the opinions of Compass Mining Inc. None of this content should be considered financial advice.