Andy Edstrom, CFA, CFP is the author of the book “Why Buy Bitcoin: Investing Today in the Money of Tomorrow.” In this episode we talk about how Bitcoin can help an investment portfolio, the derisking of threats to Bitcoin over the last few years, and market cycles.

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Gibbs: Hey everyone, welcome to the Compass podcast. Today, I am joined by author Andy Edstrom. Some of you may know him from the book that he has written, 'Why Buy Bitcoin?'  If you haven't read it, I definitely recommend it. It is a great foray into investing in Bitcoin. And I'm excited to really dive into a great conversation with Andy about what he makes of everything that's going on now with all of the new interest and everyone that's now paying attention to this new asset class, which if you're listening to the show, you are probably among those who are Bitcoin believers, maybe even maximalists. So some of what we discuss, I'm sure is going to resonate with you and maybe you can, you know, add this arrow to your quiver when you're having conversations with normies trying to express to them the importance of why buy bitcoin so without further ado, we're gonna get into the show. I'm really looking forward to this conversation with Andy. I hope that you enjoyed this episode. If you do, please consider subscribing and leaving a review on your preferred listening platform. It really helps out the show. The Compass podcast is presented commercial free by Compass, the number one Bitcoin mining marketplace. If you want to get started mining Bitcoin, source hard to find ASICs, or find competitively priced hosting space and check Compass out at compassmining.io. And now on to the show. Andy, how are you? Welcome to the show!

Edstrom: Whit great to be with you, I appreciate you having the conversation with me.

Gibbs: Really looking forward to it. The book and look there's there's a lot of great literature out about Bitcoin. But really, I think the the best books are the ones that are palatable and make it easy for people to understand why they should place their time, effort or resources into into Bitcoin. So what was it that led you to writing this book in the first place?

Edstrom: Yeah, so I started my journey in 2017, I was the usual third exposure, you know, case, right, read an article in The Economist in 2013, about Bitcoin totally went over my head, read an article in the Wall Street Journal, I think about Ethereum in 2016, after the hard fork, the DAO fork, totally went over my head, ignored it. And then a smart friend of mine you know, basically pulled on my shirt and, and put it on my radar and kind of probably second quarter 2017. And then I finally did my homework or started my homework and, and got involved in the third quarter of 2017. So I made the usual hero's journey through all the all the altcoins all the junk coins. I always kept, you know, my Bitcoin, as far as my personal portfolio, Bitcoin was always my largest position, and always has been, but I kind of had to make it through that whole process and the bubble and all of that stuff. And after, you know, the sort of the final dump in late 2018, that got to be January of 2019. And Bitcoin was at $3200, I think. And I decided to put pen to paper, and it was partly an exercise to strengthen my own conviction, and really, you know, test the thesis outwards, I'd been through the the cycle in 2017, I had held all the way through, I had actually added, right, I was I was stacking sats, 2018, you know, not consistently, but in several chunks, by the way, stacking sets at prices, and then watching the price go lower, right? Every every painful purchase is staring at a loss. And so I kind of get to the point where I was like, Alright, it's beat down, I do believe in it strongly as an investment. I want to get my clients involved, you know, am I right, basically. And then I realized also, okay, if I'm going to get my clients involved, because I'm a wealth manager, well, I'm gonna have to put the thesis on paper. And if I'm going to do that, I might as well do it for a larger audience. And the first draft was more technical, but I decided to, you know, basically make every effort to make it open and accessible to a broader audience, both for you know, my friends and family for my clients. I mean, this was this was an opportunity that I thought was not to be missed. It was an opportunity that I didn't expect to see, you know, maybe more than once a decade or even once a lifetime. And so yeah, for various reasons, I decided to, to write the book, all those reasons.

Gibbs: So you write the book, you put it out, are the first people to get it, your clients?

Edstrom: Well, more or less. I mean, basically, it published live, I think it was live on Amazon and September 2, 2019. And yes, I basically immediately ordered copies and sent them to my clients. And obviously, I sent an you know, an announcement email and, and so that was the first stage it was only probably three months later that actually started, you know, kind of getting out there to promote it. I started tweeting, right, I was a lurker on Twitter, until December 2019 as the announcement of the book. And yeah, that's when I started sort of, you know, pounding the pavement a little bit to get the word out.

Gibbs: So now as a wealth manager, obviously you've got great relationships with the people who trust you with their money when it comes to Bitcoin. How does this impact those relationships? You Initially, are you the crazy guy who did now it's now it's the trust is questionable, or are your clients pretty open?

Edstrom: Yeah, no. So look, it was all of this was somewhat strategic and or tactical with respect to managing my clients for sure. I mean, if I had been, you know, like I said, I started writing the book in January, this is, you know, you can't make this stuff up right literally at the bottom, literally the bottom in terms of price. And I realized that if I bought it, then, you know, I could get thrown out the window, basically, right, the defenestrations would begin. So I knew I needed the thesis to back it up, I also honestly recognize that probably we needed to see a bottom. In other words, it was gonna be real hard to convince normie clients, you know, to buy this thing at $3k or $4k, after this massive, you know, 85% down move or whatever it was from the from that prior peak. So it helped A) to have the book out by September and B) it helped to have, you know, somewhat higher price, let's be honest. Sure. And so yeah, so the conversations, I'm sure could have been much tougher, there were still a few tough skeptical ones, but it honestly and I knew or had a feeling that this was the way it would go, which is why I you know, as soon as I put out the book, and then bought for clients, you know, and the ones that the ones that started asking questions, I said here, right, read this first, I send it each of them a copy, obviously. And after you read it, you know, let's have a conversation. And some, I'm sure ignored it. A number of them read it, I got a lot of actually really good feedback. And it was a good conversation piece and conversation starter and level setting for a lot of them. Because just like everybody else, myself included, Why say everybody, I mean, God bless the the Austrians who've been all over this stuff, you know, for years and years. I mean, God, I wish I'd had the benefit of that, that exposure, that education, but I didn't so like most other people understanding what is money, and starting with that was really pretty critical. And so the book, obviously, you know, lays the foundation for what is money? What is the state of the world in terms of debt in the context of the global global financial crisis, you know, which I had lived through professionally, did live through professionally? And then okay, what are the basics of Bitcoin? Here's, you know, what's just enough technical explanation to hopefully make it stick. And then, of course, what's all the laundry list of over risks and or FUD, you know, the investor, you know, the classically trained value investor, like me has the has the risk section of the book, but I call it 40 pages of FUD. Because what you know, and what I know is that most of those risks are technically risks, but they are so minuscule and or so misunderstood, that it's really not worth worrying much about him.

Gibbs: But now in the book, those risks that you talked about whether it's, you know, regulation or quantum computing, in the time, since you've written the book, how have those evolved or changed with regards to how they're being communicated to, to your clients now that we're at $60k not $3500?

Edstrom: Yeah, no, that's a great point. I mean, I had four categories: political risks, economic risks, technical risks, and then sociological and psychological risks in each of those has its own, you know, set of set of risks, and you make that you named a couple of them, definitely, I would say that the set of risks in terms of you know, the binary like, is it on the list or not on the list probably hasn't changed much. I would say that the political risk looks reduced. In other words, I took the view at the time that it was pretty low probability that governments would try to do really bad things to trigger Bitcoin itself, or people holding the coin or miners for that. Yeah, you know, for that matter. But yeah, the the last couple years of events, basically, in facts and circumstances have obviously, de-risked or indicated, let's put it this way, there's little or no indication that governments are are trying to, you know, hamper Bitcoin in any significant way. So I would say that risk is is reduced. You mentioned quantum. Quantum is an interesting one. I mean, I would say quantum is still there. And it's, you know, it's only closer, the risk is only closer in the sense that there's a number of companies I'm aware of, like, I don't know, probably 8 or 10 of them that are building larger and larger qubit machines. Now, that does, are we faster? Is that on track? Or like is it happened faster or slower than anticipated? I don't know. I think that risk, quote unquote, is still out there. But it doesn't worry me much. And I guess what I would argue is as market cap has increased, that just makes it I mean, while it increases the the attack, you know, sort of a honeypot. On the other hand, it also greatly increases the, you know, basically the benefit, let's say the necessity to come up with a quantum proof solution. In other words, if you if you look back, you'd say okay, there will be a solution to the quantum attack vector on public key cryptography cryptography because so much rides on it already, right? Like basically all of internet commerce. But with multi-trillion dollar Bitcoin, let's look at a few years, we're already at a trillion dollars, that is potentially at least as large in magnitude of a incentive, let's say, for cryptographers to find a solution. So yeah, the bigger it gets, the more payoff or the more necessary it is to, to come up with a quantum hard solution that can get forked in at a later date. Again, even assuming it's required. So I guess I could argue that's a that's a positive.

Gibbs: One, you know, one risk that I think in 2019 and and before that was was out there, especially for you know, institutions is the the liquidity, right, if if I take a sizable position in Bitcoin, and it starts to go down, am I trapped in my position? Am I going to be able to, you know, cut my losses and get out. And I think that, for all the hate and the venom that was spewed at Elon Musk over the past, you know, 48 hours, I think that this was a great show that there is liquidity you can you can exit a sizable position of Bitcoin very quickly, cost effectively, and, albeit very public, in his case, generally, it doesn't need to make a lot of noise.

Edstrom: I agree completely. And this is this is I'm glad you raised this factor. This is one of the things I don't know if I underestimated it. But if I wind black, back the clock a couple years, it's been interesting, let's say, to watch the evolution of the institutional involvement at different scales. And so you know, one back the clock to 2017, and I don't know, Novogratz and everyone else, we're like, institutions are coming, institutions are coming, right, it's happening. And the counter argument is what you just made, which is there's a whole there's a certain class of institutions, maybe it's pensions, you know, maybe it's ultimately central bank's, you know, basically its endowments potentially, it's large investors that literally can't touch Bitcoin until it's over trillion dollars because of liquidity. And I'm assuming, by the way, that the liquidity is a sort of derivative or direct corollary or correlation of the marketcap. And so yeah, so we've seen these waves of adoption, and it really does seem to be to have been based on the liquidity needs of that class of investor. So obviously, the family offices and hedge funds were early, and then the corporates are happening now. are already started happening last year, I mean, in size, obviously. And then yet, we've still got these incremental classes of investors that are still poking around coming in, you know, the insurance companies are getting their feet wet. And that is one of the genius characteristics of this market, which I just wonder if, you know, somehow Satoshi could have foreseen is that there were just be incremental, larger and larger categories of demand for this thing from investors that just needed and had, you know, needed more liquidity and higher minimum thresholds. So it really is a case of the bigger it gets, the more demand there is amazing.

Gibbs: Imagine that, right? I mean, we're at this stage now where it seems like I mean, everyone's talking about Bitcoin, everyone's got an interest in it, it's it's top of mind for governments, institutions, retail, literally everyone, you have to be living under a rock to be, you know, to be missing this wave that we're seeing. But now from, from your perspective, being that, you know, some of the heavy lifting when it comes to investing in Bitcoin is probably already done for you. Do you find that now new clients are coming in and actually asking for exposure to Bitcoin?

Edstrom: Yes, absolutely. So it's almost a tale of two groups, it's sort of, in the wide world of wealth management, you know, there's tens of trillions of dollars of assets. And there's all kinds of clients, large, small, rich, poor, you know, old, young, you know, different profiles in terms of, you know, hands off versus hands on. I mean, there's just all this opportunity out there. And I have found that there is a segment of the population that's paying attention to Bitcoin, and they are interested in finding a wealth manager that I think understands it. And then there's also the category which is one of my favorites, and I've had lots of conversations to folks like this, which is large, you know, decent size stack bitcoiners, okay, who are pretty convicted like I am that still we're gonna see significantly higher prices in dollar terms, right, like, the bull market ain't close to over probably, and they're thinking about that I'm thinking about for them, Hey, you know, your, whatever 95 plus percent of your net worth is in this single asset. At some point in the future, are you going to want to, you know, take a little bit off the table and diversify and I know that's heresy to some listeners, but. But yeah, there there are people who never thought they were going to be wealthy or you know, didn't anticipate that they would become wealthy as fast as they did with Bitcoin and as they say, with the, you know, with, with wealth generation to get rich, you concentrate your portfolio and to stay rich, you diversify. And so some of them are thinking about, hey, I'd like to stay rich. And, you know, as well as maybe I want to sleep better at night, you know, I don't really want to suffer through another bear market, if that happens, which is, you know, still my base case assumption. And so they're thinking about, yeah, you know, like, at what price, you know, and my peeling some off it, you know, pick a pick a price in the six figures in terms of USD. And so yeah, so there's a couple of categories of inbound that I'm getting. One is those people with significant stack that may look to diversify later, you know, or need financial advice. And then another is, is those who, who know that Bitcoin is going to be a real part of the future, and they just want to make sure their wealth manager is thinking about it knowledgeable about it, and understand its importance in the context of a portfolio, which is greater than we think, I think, than most people realize.

Gibbs: Well, now, when it comes to diversification, I mean, aside from just Bitcoin exposure directly, you've got GBTC, there's ETFs, there's, you know, public mining stocks. So what does this look like? Or how do these factor in when you're talking to clients? Or is it just they look, hey, there's Bitcoin? And then there's these others that are not Bitcoin, but still give you some measured exposure?

Edstrom: Yeah, so that's obviously evolving over time. And it's interesting to think about, because when you wind back the clock, even six months, even like four months, I mean, the number of new products and alternatives that has come to market kind of makes your head spin, right, I've gotten this spreadsheet, which is like, you know, Bitcoin, you know, methods for getting Bitcoin exposure for clients. And each column, right is a different, you know, funder, organization or solution, and I haven't been able to keep up to be honest with you. Right, I've got I tried to keep stats on you know, who the sponsor is, what the fee structure is, you know, what the, you know, logistics are, who are the third party providers, you know, like the auditor, I mean, all this all the stuff that you would want to know, as an investor in one of these vehicles, and it that spreadsheet is just keeps getting bigger, it's almost unmanageable at this point. So yes, the number of products that's coming to market is, is enormous. And that's, by the way, just in the category of Bitcoin exposure. And when you layer on sort of proxies, you know, whether it's MicroStrategy, or, you know, other companies with big balance sheet exposure, or it's the mining companies, there's, there's a whole world of opportunity there. I am still biased, I have been biased toward and still I'm biased toward direct, I shouldn't say direct exposure, but as direct as possible exposure to the underlying the Bitcoin itself, as opposed to, you know, individual mining stock names. I feel that the risk adjusted return available to holding Bitcoin still probably significantly exceeds, you know, anything else out there in terms of other proxies, or in terms of the quote unquote, crypto space, right. So could that change? Yeah, I mean, you know, nothing is certain, but probably what you know, and what I know, and what many listeners know, hopefully, is that the thing about Bitcoin is it's still king and there's a reason it's still king and it's hiding in plain sight. It's right in front of you people. There's all these whiz bang alternatives and ways to get exposure but but on a risk adjusted basis, I still think Bitcoin is the is the best opportunity and then I'll maybe I'll caveat I'll say in terms of like the publicly traded mining names, you know, in theory there there's probably there's probably value there there may be really interesting risk adjusted, you know, opportunities there. I mean, if I wind back the clock, certainly I wish that I had seen in advance the prospect that the huge supply chain, you know, disruption and inability to get to get rigs basically would accrue in dramatic fashion right to some of these public mining names. So I have some regret there. You know, I wish I'd bought them either for my clients or myself or both. But yeah, so I guess I could argue that was a missed opportunity but but going forward that's that's kind of what I see at the moment.

Gibbs: You know it's funny with the public mining stocks and really any anything outside of Bitcoin because i don't know I look at them like a trade as opposed to Bitcoin which is the store of value and you can argue it's it's a medium of exchange, but I still see it as my my safe harbor, right? If I'm going to make a trade and exit out into fiat, that fiat is going to go into bitcoin, right? If I'm going to save resources for later in life, I'm going to those savings are going to be in Bitcoin, right? So I think that the public mining companies, the ETFs, GBTC, is it's a nice primer. And I think that it helps people understand that you know, anything tangential to Bitcoin itself can provide great returns, but ultimately at the end of the day, when you're exiting out of any trade in my mind, you want to be, you know, exiting to Bitcoin?

Edstrom: Yeah, and I'll just, you know, just to riff on it a little more, I mean, people come to me, you know, they're pitching, they're pitching mining startups, basically, you know, stranded net gas, you know, production, you know, that's the, that's the low cost, you know, anchor for it, basically building a mining business on top of, and I had no doubt there's opportunity in those, you know, in those areas, or, you know, different mining models, whether it's yours or anyone else's, but but the layers of complexity and risk, you know, the execution risk, you know, picking the management team, you know, the the all the risks come with the with the startup, because let's be honest, most of these things are still effectively startups, not all of them. But many, like, that is all you could do that, as an investor, you could, you could do that as a full time job. I mean, the, the layers of complexity and the dynamics within the within the mining market. You know, if I, if I spent the, you know, 80 hours a week, just analyzing those opportunities, you know, I might be lucky to, you know, to pick the right one. So, yeah, it's it's definitely a higher, higher level of complexity. And I'm sure there's opportunity there, but me sitting in my seat, you know, that getting that edge, or gaining that alpha is likely to be very difficult.

Gibbs: I mean, investing in mining companies is also not the most attractive returns, right? Right now, when everyone's looking to place capital, and there's so many opportunities for venture style returns, venture type of returns your 10s, 20x's, mining companies generally don't provide that, right? If you're looking at building infrastructure, there's, it's it's capital heavy, right? There's a ton of capex that goes into that. And you mentioned the execution risk. That's the biggest, I mean, we see these decks and we see these people that are building these companies, and God bless them. I love the initiative and the drive. But despite ASIC being plug and play, everything else is not, you know, building a data center, figuring out how heat dissipation works, making sure that you're even if you're drawing natural gas, how your gensets operate all of those things, they add such complexity, which is why you have you know, like Great American Mining, or Crusoe, or Upstream Data, I mean, these guys, they're 100% focus is on this specific industry. And they built it in the bear market, which, you know, was not the sexiest time to build, and they had to bootstrap a lot of it themselves and figure it out as they went, and it just makes them more resilient now.

Edstrom: Absolutely. And everything you just mentioned, which are sort of the technical elements of managing a data center business, which itself is like a fully developed field, right? There's, yep, that's hard. Yeah, those engineering problems are hard. Then, of course, you layer on the complexity level of the energy, you know, typography, basically, the the whole grid layout, you know, all the various potential sources, you know, the, the dynamics of what direction are these various classes of energy moving in terms of their development, either in the US or in other jurisdictions? And it's like, wow, that's a to be good and expert in that field. Yeah, truly would be a full time job and a half.

Gibbs: Yes, slight pivot here. But I want to talk about your take on Michael Saylor, MicroStrategy and them entering the market. Yeah. What are your thoughts on how that has impacted things?

Edstrom: I mean, obviously, it was a watershed event. When you when the history books are written about the year 2020 in Bitcoin, and they will be written about that will be written about in major history books, because, you know, you work backwards, and you say, what will be considered the most important things that happened in you know, in the history of the early 21st century, Bitcoin was for sure one of them. Okay, well, what were the major events in Bitcoin? Well, there was that inflection point in 2012, in the bull market of 2020. And what were the major drivers now he's not the only one, but clearly, he's a major one. And so, you know, he he is the he is one of the best pitchmen I have ever seen in my, you know, life investing career in any industry? I'm not just talking about Bitcoin. And, and he's working for Bitcoin. So that's good. We got the we got the strongest, you know, sales force, sales team member in the world probably.

Gibbs: He even converted Hope.com to a Bitcoin resource database.

Edstrom: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I love also that he has, when you dig into his personal history and his knowledge, you realize that he has credibility, you know, behind the thesis, I mean, obviously, when he pitches or when he just talks about it, the things he talks about, and the way he talks about them give high confidence that he knows what he's talking about right. Now. On the other hand, as an investor, we're always trying to peel through the, you know, get around the sales pitch and, you know, try to dig into what's substantive. If you dig into his background, he has all these pieces that give him credibility in terms of his ability to judge that Bitcoin, you know, is this is this huge opportunity, right? Because he studied the history of science. Oh, he's been a, you know, an entrepreneur and CEO in the software business for decades. Oh, also, he wrote this book called The Mobile Wave in 2012, which people should read. I have, it's very good. I mean, a lot of the stuff that he said would happen in the subsequent eight or nine years has happened. And a lot of it's based on the internet and network dynamics. And so he has all these, you know, these these every he has this knowledge base and this history. And then you mentioned, you mentioned the domain names, right. So like, of course, he understands scarcity on the internet. Right? He was smart enough to buy all these, you know, these basic domain names, excellent domain names, which is now pointing to Bitcoin, like the guy clearly understands the internet and internet native phenomena. And so yeah, he has huge credibility, and he's made a big difference.

Gibbs: So where do you think in this cycle, as we're, you know, as we're moving forward. Price volatility is something that has often been viewed as a negative? What do I mean, as a wealth manager? How do you feel about volatility? And how are you communicating whether it's positive or negative about price volatility to your clients?

Edstrom: Yeah. So I love that you asked about the volatility because it is, it is a crucial point for investors, you know, for new people into the space basically, for everyone. I did used to think that the volatility was a bug. And I have come to the view that it is a feature, and here's why. So the first is it one of the things I did in my book, which others have done, as well as is the classic sort of analysis of a portfolio, what is the portfolio look like with Bitcoin? And with that without Bitcoin in terms of both return and risk? And of course, the answer is, if you size it, right, and if you have a diversified multi asset portfolio, then Bitcoin has added to the return substantially without adding risk. Or if you're careful about the construction, you can, you can set it up so that reduces the risk. Okay, amazing, amazing as a as a portfolio construction tool. So if you take the right view on on portfolio construction, you realize that the volatility is, you know, is really not, it's not that big a problem. Okay, the second thing that makes about volatility beneficial is it's not money, I'm saying that, you know, jokingly, right, the central bankers, the economists, they all talk about how volatile it is, and therefore, it can't be a medium of exchange, and therefore, it's not money to which I say, great, we Bitcoiners will just be off here in the corner working on this thing, that's not money. And in another decade or two, surprise, surprise, people might actually use it as a medium of exchange, once it's at least an order of magnitude bigger, maybe two orders of magnitude bigger, and, and the ball has, you know, reduced over time, and people are willing to part with it, right? Because they don't want to just, you know, hodl it because they know the value is going up, etc, etc. Right? So that's the other benefit of or another benefit of the volatility. third benefit of the volatility is, you know, sitting with the mutual fund manager investor last week, I think, and he was talking about, oh, you know, want to get manipulated, like the gold market, you know, want the shorts be able to, to beat down the price? And my answer to that, you know, it is a risk. It's actually something I talked about in the book. And the answer to that is good luck, right? One of the benefits of having such volatility in the same, especially to the upside is that if you go short in too much size, you get taken out to the woodshed. Exactly, you get wrecked, you get blown up the volatility actually, in some ways, makes the market safer. And I could argue in general, I mean, who knows, for sure what caused the recent, you know, downturn, and then now we're looking at recovery, but it looks like a bunch of, you know, levered, traders got liquidated. And that's a good thing for the development of the market. The fact that there is risk that you get liquidated, if you use leverage makes it less likely that you're gonna get into a position where the layers of leverage that are built on top of Bitcoin basically threaten, threatened its functioning or threaten its existence. So I think the volatility is a significant net positive. And that is a hard argument to make to most people. And it's not what I you know, it's not the view that I held when I was first getting involved. And I think that a few brilliant people probably realize it quickly. But for the most of the rest of us, it just takes time and deep thought and understanding about the market dynamics to reach that conclusion about Bitcoin bull. I'm curious what you think?

Gibbs: So I started as a trader before before getting into mining, so I love volatility. All of your money is made in volatile markets. If everything is stagnant, you have to be very, very, very good as a trader, as volatility decreases, but with increased volatility, your ability to swing and you know, win trades is it's easier. You can you can buy on the way up when it's already up 5% when it's gonna run another 30%. On the way down, you're able to get out of a trade a little bit faster if you're, you're wise with your scenarios. So I've always been a fan of it. From the mining side, volatility is fantastic, because especially when we're dealing with hardware that's in short supply, volatility ensures that people who really are the biggest believers, and the best prepared with their capital are able to be in the best position. So if I have a lot of capital, but I deployed in efficiently at a time when the market is, you know, on its way up, and I'm paying overpaying for these ASICs, that I'm gonna pay that price when the market turns, and I'm now sitting on hardware that is overvalued. And the inverse is also true. If you have a lot of capital and the market turns, and you've been waiting for this chance to buy the dip, you will get that ability to do so. And you know, fortunately, because of volatility that that's able to occur, if everything was let's say, operating within a range of you know, 100 or $500, there's not going to be any changes to the upper or the downside, and it's ultimately just going to lead the people who have the biggest capital stack to win, it wouldn't matter. You could deploy capital every third day of the month. And you would win because you would be able to, you know, out by everyone else, and it wouldn't have anything to do with the skill or the timing with the market. It would just be you know, I've got a fat wad of cash that I can spend, and you can't.

Edstrom: You mentioned the, I think that's an interesting perspective on you know, from the mining side, and then for the trading side, it's the kind of it's the pro con of how many hardcore hodlers Bitcoin hodlers you know, found Bitcoin because the trading opportunity you know, fortunately or unfortunately, maybe it's unfortunately, usually the way it's gone in bull markets like we're in now is yeah, that's how the that's how a lot of the retail comes in. Right? They think they can be a pro trader, or some percentage of them thinks they could be a pro trader. And then of course, they get you know, get wrecked in the subsequent shakeout. And and of course, they try to do it on all coins because all coins have even more evolved. And you know, ABC junk coin is going to be the next Bitcoin, which I still hear from still hear from pro investors without naming him one of these mutual fund guys that I was talking to recently was like, man, I'm really interested in finding the finding the next Bitcoin and I'm like, dude, you're smarter than this, you should be smarter. Anyway, so yeah, it's it's interesting to think about how much how much interest in the sector You know, there's no counterfactual obviously, but how much interest in the sector, the sector and how much learning happened as a result of the of the fall in the trading opportunity.

Gibbs: All right. Well, this conversation could definitely go on for much longer, but we do have to wrap up here pretty soon. Before we do though, Andy, what I want to know, bull market, everything's mooning. We're all living the highlife planning to come down to Miami. Everyone's getting yachts and throwing parties and preparing for the party that will be Bitcoin 2021. What has you most excited about this market right now?

Edstrom: Oh, interesting. Yeah, I mean, look, obviously, I'm excited to accumulate more returns in terms of, you know, purchasing power, I won't say in terms of dollars, or euros or yen, but let's just say, you know, the real value of the network, I do expect the network value to go up more and, and soon, right, probably this year. So there's that I am excited for mainstreaming. It's been, you know, a little cold out, it was a little cold out in the wilderness of the of this latest, you know, bear market. It was painful. Being involved in you know, the time between 2017 and today, although that pain has been much reduced in the last six months. But yeah, look, I mean, I've got an ego, like, I'm happy to look right. I looked like a lunatic, whatever. My book, and Bitcoin was the earth started writing at $3,000 and published it, you know, late 2019, at least to some people, I look like Olympic. So, yeah, it's, it's nice to see the thesis bear out. I'm also really excited for people to stretch their minds, you know, peel, look behind the curtain. I mean, what we learned in Bitcoin is that so many things that we took for granted were wrong, or at least we weren't understanding them. Right. And so I'm still getting inbound, you know, friends and family talking about, you know, environmental Fudd and various other factors. And so I'm excited to watch these people on their journey toward understanding, you know, the reality of what this thing is and what it's likely to mean for the world. And I'm excited to, you know, do my small part, basically, to help them on that journey. And likewise, I'm excited to learn from the whole community. I mean, the whole community has been so amazing, so well, but welcoming. I mean, I just feel happy and lucky to be here.

Gibbs: It's fantastic. Well said, well, Andy, I'm grateful that you were able to make time to come on the show. before we sign off here though, please let everyone know how they can find you. And also an audio version of the book is available, so let everyone know how they can find it.

Edstrom: Yeah, of course. the book is called Why Buy Bitcoin, subtitled Investing Today In The Money of Tomorrow. It's on Amazon. It's on Apple. You know, most places you can get a book you'll find it thank you Whit for pointing out that the audio is available. Our excellent Bitcoin or mutual friend Damian Somerset did the work on that. And it turned out great. I'm real happy with it and you know I can be found obviously on Twitter handles @edstromandrew, it's last name and first name it's from Andrew and yeah, check out you know, stack some sats with Swan Bitcoin, swanbitcoin.com/andy. Because I think that A) we should all be stacking sats as a as a personal policy, and B), I don't think this bull market is anywhere near being over with. So I still think accumulation now and for the long term makes all the sense in the world.

Gibbs: Boom, mic drop. Andy, thank you so much. And to listeners out there. We appreciate you guys for tuning into the Compass podcast. We'll talk to you guys all again very soon. That's a wrap for us at the Compass podcast. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you did, please subscribe and consider leaving us a five star review on your preferred listening platform. Thanks again everyone. The thoughts and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests on the compass podcast are their own and do not represent the opinions of Compass Mining Inc. None of this content should be considered financial advice